In working on the story on the caste system disputes that led to skirmishes in some Saranculeh communities in Upper River Region of The Gambia, The Times interviewed Muhammed Bai Drammeh an activist, political commentator, and a colleague of Basamba Njol Drammeh whose controversial letter to President Adama Barrow was leaked and subsequently published on this medium. Below is the interview with Mr. Muhammed Bai Drammeh in its entirety:
The Gambia Times: As a liberal Saranculeh man what do you think is the way forward; do you think the caste system should be abolished or maintained? Don’t you think some of the bylaws imposed on the Commehs(slave caste) especially in settlements like Diabugu are helping, or will cause problem to the fragile peace?
MBD: I do not classify myself as a Saranculeh, Wolof, Serere, Manjagou, Balanta, Mandinka, etc., but I do classify myself as a sovereign citizen of the Republic of The Gambia. I fully support and defend the constitution of The Gambia. Like I said I did not grow up in Diabugu or in any part of the URD, and I may be mistaken if I try to comment on something that I have little knowledge about. If you ask me about the Kanifing Municipality I may exercise the little knowledge I have in my place of birth the Kanifing Municipality.
The Gambia Times: What do you think should be the position of government on this critical issue?
MBD: Regarding the government, like I said in our telephone conversation since Jawara, Jammeh to Barrow; the people of The Gambia have not been educated to know what a republic means and as a result they [the presidents] decided to profit politically on the people. Civic education is fundamental in solving this issue.
The Gambia Times: What advice do you have for fanatic Saranculehs who strongly believed in the caste structure?
MBD: I would not call anyone fanatical or names that they would see as disparaging or condescending. The best way to deal with this is dialogue and have a common understanding on the kind of country we have. Our republican status is telling us that a sovereign Gambian only started existing from 24th, April 1970. This is the truth. So, in essence if one understand that there was a period when sovereignty of The Gambia resided in Her Majesty the Queen of the UK, then our actions will be different. With time and with sovereign Gambian being more common, we will be talking about something totally different.
The Gambia Times: As a Sovereign Gambian do you believed and subscribed to the caste system prevalent among the people who called themselves Saranculehs/Soninkes?
MBD: For the purposes of clarity, I mentioned several time times I believed that since the 24th, April 1970, every Gambian is a sovereign citizen. Furthermore, because of a lack of understanding of our constitution and the republican status, we are doing things which differ from the spirit and letter of the constitution. Thus, in response to your question the situation of the caste system have already been addressed in 1970, and with civic education it will not be a topic under discussion.
The Gambia Times: As a Sovereign Gambian do you support the efforts and ideas Mr. Basamba Drammeh wrote to President Barrow in ending the caste system among the Saranculeh people all over The Gambia and West Africa?
MBD: Regarding Basamba Njol Drammeh, I think it is not a matter for me to show solidarity or not because his right to express his opinion is enshrined in the constitution. I am a republican and I believe that sovereignty resides in the people of The Gambia who has the right to elect and be elected. The constitution did not specify which kind of individual can be selected or not and therefore, I have no problem with anyone who follows the dictates of the constitution and speak the language of unity.
The Gambia Times: As a Sovereign Gambian do you support the efforts of The Gambana Movement to ending social ostracism and disenfranchisement of the Commeh (slave) caste in the Saranculeh communities all over The Gambia?
MBD: Regarding The Gambana Movement, I do not know of their activities. However, Freedom of Association is a constitutional right. I have heard of another counter organization which I do not know of their activities. What I do understand now is that this is more of a social problem. I would not use the term slave caste. I would have call each a sovereign Gambian. As I said to you before there was a failure from the Jawara government, the Jammeh government and, even now, the Barrow government to educate the Gambian people on what a republic means. Because of the fact that we do not understand that in a republic we are all citizens very equal in the eyes of the law, we may behave in a way contrary to the letter and spirit of the constitution. The constitution guarantees every citizen the right to move about in any part of the country and even the right to reside in any part of the country but with tradition and common practice [one] could be banished from a village. This is because we have constitutions in Africa which have been written in foreign languages with the thinking of the foreigners and most of the time, what is in that constitution is completely at variance with common practice.
The Gambia Times: As a Sovereign Gambian, what efforts have you taken to convince the people of your ancestral Diabugu and other people who called themselves Saranculehs to allow the Commehs equal rights to be Alkalos, chiefs, community leadership, etc.? As someone who hails from the Horreh (noble) caste and a political commentator do you have the courage to call for equality between the Commehs and Horrehs in all social relationships including intermarriages, burials, etc.?
MBD: I would not classify myself as someone who hails from the “Horreh” of “Forro” or “Gorr” caste. I was very lucky to have been born after 24thApril 1970. Thus, I was born at a time when my country was not owned by His/Her Majesty the King/Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. So, in essence anyone born before 24thApril 1970 was not born free, but was a subject of HIs/Her Majesty the King/Queen of the UK. I am part of the Soninkara Political Group—a chat forum where I try my best to educate the people on the constitution and a republican country. Like I said, these caste system is not something I know very well as I did not grow up in the URD. (I still call it the URD because I refused to accept Jammeh changing the name.
Marriage is a union of two individuals and it is completely a private union between two individuals who want to come together to form a union. Therefore, I will never interfere in the marriage life of anyone. Regarding burials, I am not aware that there is discrimination in burial grounds, but this may be news to me if you are just informing me.
The Gambia Times: Do you support Mr. Basamba Drammeh’s right to petition the government as a Sovereign Gambian citizens, and does that include making an appeal to end the caste system?
MBD: Mr. Basamba Njol is way older me and may be his knowledge of the caste system may be by far greater than mine. Like I said, it is not a matter for me to decide on what Basamaba Njol’s freedom of expression should be. That is his constitutional right to express himself and if he feels the need to exercise that right he is very free to do so. What the government should be engaged in is to create a sovereign Gambian who only see himself as a Gambian. Once this is solved then all these problems would be a thing of the past
The Gambia Times: What comments have you made on social media to defend his [Basamba Njol’s] rights against the condemnations and personal attacks he endured from activists on social media?
MBD: Regarding the attacks on Basamba Njol Drammeh, I have condemned the insults that were meted to the person of Basamba Njol Drammeh and advised people to be tolerant; and if they think that Basamba Njol made a mistake, then they should contact him in private for clarifications rather than vilifying his character in a manner that is not appropriate. I called for calm and reminded people that it is only human to err; and it is worst if we are out to destroy each other verbally just because we disagreed. I was not happy at the insults he received but I was helpless. If I were to write his letter, I would have written in a different manner and I would not have used words like barbaric. Instead of most people reading his whole article they pick on that that point only and said that he insulted their people.
The Gambia Times: As a Sovereign Gambian, would you support, for example, your sister or daughter to marry a husband in the Commeh (slave) caste?
MBD: I have mentioned already in my response to your [earlier] question what my thoughts are on marriage. It is not a matter for me to choose whom my sister or daughter is married to. I do not like using the word “Commeh” or slave caste. I strongly believed that every Gambian is a sovereign citizen with equal status.
The Gambia Times: I’ m so grateful to you for taking all your time…May Allah protect and guides you….. However, this may not be the last time to engage you on this issue if you don’t mind.
MBD: You are always welcomed.
The Gambia Times: Rest assure that once we published the story, we will let you know.
MBD: No problem.
EDITORS’ NOTE: The Times published this story here, as we promised Mr. Drammeh, with minor changes for clarity and grammar corrections. Unfortunately, but disappointedly, before we published the story, it came to our notice that Mr. Drammeh had, without The Times’ permission, published and posted our interview with him, and had distributed his version of the interview on other social media outlets. That was a bridge of trust and stealing a work The Times has proprietary and intellectual rights over. The Times had demanded from Mr. Drammeh, and he had complied, to pull down the interview from his Facebook post to allow The Times space and time to publish the full interview. The version Mr. Drammeh has out may have immaterial or substantive differences with this publication, which may not represent the true exchange with The Times.